There is something fundamentally wrong with Apple.
Currently, it’s hard to find a day in the tech news without some news about Apple rejecting another application or kicking one out. Sure, they are in the news because so many people are using the iPhone and other products developed by Apple, but if you consider just what is happening there: it’s kind of very sad, isn’t it?
Apple is company that understands like no other what it means to create the most desirable hard- and software there is these days. Maybe not from a developer perspective, but from a user perspective it’s just a dream come true. And most iPhone users probably don’t hear the stories about yet another rejected application, but some do, some blog about it and hopefully there is a bit of a front developing against Apple’s way to do business.
There are always critics for almost anything. It’s basically an epic battle between Microsoft, Apple and Linux. Everybody is criticizing everybody and Microsoft fans suffer the most. Then there are the Linux people like myself, who still considered to be just way to nerdy to think clearly or objectively.
And then there are the Apple users.
They are considered a special breed. They can claim that they are Unix because they fulfill they basic needs which an Unix OS has to have and they have the design argument, because everything in the Apple world is pretty and it’s actually working out of the box.
But this working out of the box comes with a price and I am not talking about the money. I don’t really think of Apple products as overpriced, if relating them to the user experience. They do just work after all. No, I’m talking about the closed system that Apple has created. OS X is only working on some few hardware components and same goes for the iPhone version of OS X. So in future, please don’t compare the OS X with other OS, because they actually do work on millions of different components and in case of Linux they are actually free.
Still, this isn’t my largest concern with Apple and their products. I’m kind of a bit afraid about talking about this part of my issue with Apple, but here it comes: my biggest problem is Apple’s user base.
Some of you may imagine, why I’m actually having trouble on talking about this issue. Basically every friend that I have is an Apple customer of some kind. Either they have an iPhone, iPod, Macbook, iMac or in some cases just everything.
At the same time my friends and in a way my total extended network is fighting for openness and freedom on many different topics, but they don’t seem to care that Apple is contradicting those ideas on a daily basis. And just sometimes, I’m asking myself: if somebody can create censorship that is as pretty, well designed and is just working out of the box as Apple products, would we still end up with 140.000 people signing a petition against censorship?
And yes, I am very well aware of the fact that it’s an unfair comparison, but fact is: everybody could use free software that works. It might not be working as good as Apple products and it’s not a pretty at some places, but imagine what would happen, if people that are so knowledgeable in designing pretty things for Apple products would start developing with the same creativity for open software?
(Open Source Developers: don’t get this the wrong way. I think you are all heroes the likes of Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong. Really!)
As most of you know, I am Linux user. My notebook is running an openSUSE 11.1 with KDE. I work with it on a daily basis. Sometimes it’s hard, because my ecosystem is not prepared for me using Linux, but I’m investing my time into solving this problems because I think that it’s important to show people that there are open and free alternatives. So yeah, it’s not perfect, but it’s free (free as in price and as in freedom). Why wouldn’t you want to actually use free software?


well said. i am with you on this one.
i’m a microsoft user but looking into buying a new machine. one of the things that put me off from buying an apple is their closedness towards open source software. heads up for being an example as a linux user.
— maze · Jul 28, 02:04 PM · #
yeah, well, it seems to be an extraordinary challenge to install a f***ing driver for printers on your linux-schminux… ;)
— Christina Romhányi · Jul 28, 02:07 PM · #
I’ve been a power user of Linux since 1994, am a SuSE Certified Linux Trainer and in my job am responsible for providing IT services to a data center with about 50.000 Linux servers.
And let me tell you, “It’s so shiny” actually is only a side benefit of using Apple products. It’s been a few years now since I switched my desktop OS from Linux to Mac OS X, and the simple reason is: It just works. Like you rightfully said above. It. Just. Works.
It’s a question of efficiency and cost effectiveness, with regard to money and time.
There are a few examples of free software I still use because they fulfill that criteria, too, like Quicksilver, Emacs and LaTeX. (Who says that there’s no OSS for Mac OS X?!)
Today, I’ll rather shell out some dough on Apple Taxes instead of spending hours mushing around in the guts of the OS just to get a second monitor to work or tweaking an application to at least approximate my needs that a commercial Mac solution satisfies completely.
And giving me shiny looks on top.
— Geewiz · Jul 28, 02:39 PM · #
Geewiz: Well, you might have switched at the wrong time.
You’re right, I said that Apple’s products “just works”, but that doesn’t mean that open source software / Linux / etc. doesn’t work. In many cases it works as good as Apple products, in some regards not (yet). The largest issue being here are, as always, drivers. But most of the time, there aren’t any issues. Linux Distros are ready for large audience.
— Igor Schwarzmann · Jul 28, 03:12 PM · #
Well, to be honest, free software is just a bag of shit. I just tried Open Office (in it’s what, 10th version?) and I thought wow how bad can it get. On a Mac, the version was even worse. Pure crapware. Wow, it’s 2009!
What’s with that, who is supposed to use Linux other than fulltime nerds? You cannot be serious suggesting more people should be using free software, unless you want everybody to get a headache and go nuts over millions of incompabilities and errors, missing drivers, ugly-ass design and first and foremost, no usable support or documentation in THE REAL WORLD.
Apple proved with the App Store for the iPhone how to do it, and will continue to do so in the future. It is the golden standard for usability. You will also see how the (oh so free and open) Android store will fail because it’s full of trash – probably the stuff that Apple rejected.
Please stop whining because you cannot exist in a commercial and quality driven world. Nobody wants to run free software on a Linux system – because it is crappy – and the numbers show just that. What software were you referring to that works as good as Apple? A browser? Wow. What about professional Software? Adobe? HD content? Games? Hello? It is rediculous, really.
Maybe you should try to work for Opera, the have a long history of writing software nobody uses and ESPECIALLY at WHINING, to the point where you just want them to shut the fuck up. Just today they have proven their REDICULOUS attitude… http://WinFuture.de/news,48670.html
— Rob · Jul 28, 03:56 PM · #
Rob, you really should read this: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/25/nsfw-bringing-nothing-to-techcrunch-and-a-brand-new-reality-to-the-unter-trolls/
— Igor Schwarzmann · Jul 28, 04:02 PM · #
@Rob: 10 points for flaming. Another 10 points for not knowing what you are talking about. When did you last use Linux? Which programs did you use? Honestly Open Office is the only program you name and it is a particularly bad example for various reasons.
It is amazing with how much crap Apple users put up. Apple products are a nightmare for anyone wanting to support them in their programs (yes I am one of them) or who want to work with the content they offer outside of the shiny and closed Apple world (yes I am one of them as well).
— Lydia · Jul 28, 04:06 PM · #
@Igor.
I did. And did you compile a list of usable professional software on Linux?
@Lydia.
It is that “shiny and closed Apple world” that is the most user friendly, working, brilliantly designed and in most cases, fastest performing environment out there. It’s probably because it is the “closed Apple world”. Thank God, if it wasn’t closed, it would probably be as crappy as the Windows or the Linux world. Go figure, it’s actually pretty easy to understand.
And no, neither I, nor Apple (obviously), want’s you to work with the content of the shiny and closed Apple world. Sorry. You should support Open Source and get a dayjob at Starbucks or something so you can make a living while giving away your work for free.
And sorry for flaming, I just felt offended by the post.
— Rob · Jul 28, 04:21 PM · #
Rob: I didn’t, but somehow I don’t feel myself obligated to flaming, anonymous comment posters.
— Igor Schwarzmann · Jul 28, 04:35 PM · #
Why is I anonymous? I’m Rob and sorry if I do not post links to show off my pathetic online existance. But that does not make me anonymous.
And I think you didnt’t compile a list beause we both know there basically is no professional software for Linux, WHAT A BUMMER! The only people using Linux are:
1. Programmers. Because all they really need is a text editor.
2. Die hard computer nerds that spend ALL DAY EVERY DAY setting up, configuring and tweaking their Linux machines without ever actually working with it in a productive manner.
3. There is no third user group.
It’s so obvious, sorry.
— Rob · Jul 28, 04:53 PM · #
Igor your heart is at the right place and times I feel guilty for my acts contradicting my claims for an open society. Yet, as I am writing this on my iPhone in a train let me explain why I partly disagree:
I want to live in a society that stops destroying the earth by finally switching to sustainable renewable energy resources. As a nerd I believe that technological innovation is the solution. yet unless there are incentives for innovation, that won’t be happening. Would I love to see open concept/sources solutions to the energy problem? Sure that would feel awesome but it ain’t going to happen. So I rather see earth rescued and some get rich doing so, than letting the planet die.
Now back to Apple, you already said it’s often the usability. As I mentioned I am nerd, I love gadgets, I love features and could passionately talk about them for hours. But I also love non-techies USE those devices. Here is what I believe: Usability ist about freedom because it is about empowerment, my girlfriend has an iPhone because she CAN use it, she cannot USE Nokia 95. Look how many non-techies are able to use apple features they were not able to on a Linux PC or other smartphones. So if I have to choose between free thru open source and free thru giving more people the choice, it’s a tradeoff, I know life sucks, but to me that’s an easy decision.
alipasha
— alipasha · Jul 28, 05:13 PM · #
Rob: Well, it’s not quite true. There is a lot open source software that is widely distributed. Starting with Firefox and yes Linux itself isn’t such a niche OS anymore. Just take a look at the school project initiative in Brazil or the city of Munich which is migrating from MS products to Linux. And that’s really just two examples. There are a lot more.
Myself for example. I’m not a programmer and I’m not a so called hardcore computer nerd. Sure, I’m more nerdy then the average guy, but hell, I can’t even use html. Linux is a very conscious decision. I wanted to use free software and I did it. It gets on my nerves sometimes, but mostly I’m very happy with it.
Ali: Well, your girlfriend and you could start using Android based phones. Those are smartphones based on free and open software, there is also a market for applications, but it’s not being restricted as in the case of the app store. And android phones are quite usable. :)
And I agree with you, that design is very important and not only because it can be shiny, but because design can be used for solving real problems.
I think, that the open source movement made a huge thing. Those people who contributed so much of their time and lives have been heroes before the concept of Wikipedia for the mainstream user was even born. Just look at it from the server side – how many servers are running on linux today? Isn’t it incredible that we made it so far in so little time?
And it’s even getting better. KDE 4 is just fucking amazing. And sorry for being so frank about it, but most people just didn’t look up what is the current state of Linux or in this case of KDE and Gnome. The last few years made an incredible difference in this world and I don’t think it’s being credited enough.
But – and that’s a big but! – I think there is still sometimes a lack of understanding what the mainstream user would want to use. And there are quite a few people – Apple users and developers – who can contribute their extensive knowledge to the open source community and help open source software to be something that really every user can use on a daily basis.
— Igor Schwarzmann · Jul 28, 06:11 PM · #
@Rob: So you don’t want people to be able to fill their IPods with anything but ITunes? You don’t want to share that nice song with your friend by copying it to his computer from your IPod? You don’t want someone to subscribe to Podcasts offered on ITunes? You don’t want to be able to switch to another system/player/whatever if for some reason something 100 times better than Apple shows up?
Well then welcome to a world where Apple can charge you twice the price it is charging you now or more. Welcome to a world where Apple is able to decide what you can put on your IPod and what you can’t. Welcome to a world where Apple can suddenly decide to no longer let you listen to the music you bought from them. Welcome to a world where you are not able to decide to switch to another system/player/whatever.
Is that the price you are willing to pay for some perceived improvements in looks and usability? You should really have a look at the most recent versions of KDE and GNOME and decide again if giving up your freedom is worth it.
Send me an email if you want to hear some of the nice things Apple does to ensure you can get your perfect and shiny system.
And btw: What’s so bad about working at Starbucks? Do whatever makes you happy.
— Lydia · Jul 28, 11:33 PM · #
One of my biggest gripes with Apple is how they’re using their majority market share in hardware music players to shut down competition in the music management software sector, by using crypto technology to prevent apps other than iTunes from conveniently accessing iPods without trickery. This strikes me as very similar to actions Microsoft has been successfuly sued for, such as bundling Internet Explorer with Windows.
Apple analysts frequently claim that Apple is primarily running iTunes to make their hardware more attractive to consumers – wouldn’t broader software compatibility make their hardware even more attractive?
It’s also worth pointing out that with the possible exception of some of the more primitive iPods, Apple doesn’t ship any products that would be functional without numerous free software components – WebKit (derived from KDE’s KHTML and KJS libraries), copious amounts of FreeBSD code, gcc, CUPS, and many more. Few people seem to realize that compared to Microsoft, Apple is a positively tiny company, and very much doesn’t exixt in a vacuum: They don’t have the manpower, or, yes, the talent, to do it all by themselves, and they don’t. Yet they tend to act that way, and are perceived that way. It’s frustrating.
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 02:31 AM · #
exixt=exist
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 02:33 AM · #
@Lydia:
1. “So you don’t want people to be able to fill their IPods with anything but ITunes?” – That’s correct! Apple created the perfect system where everyone else, no matter how open they were, failed. Why in the world should they change that? If you want to use some other software, get some other player. But don’t complain if it’s nowhere near the quality of the Apple solution.
2. “You don’t want to share that nice song with your friend by copying it to his computer from your IPod?” – That would be a nice feature. But do you realize that Apple has contracts with the studios, and if they would offer features like this, the whole thing probably wouldn’t work? Do you realize there is no competition for iTunes in terms of selection, functionality and usability, thus there is no need for change?
3. “You don’t want to be able to switch to another system/player/whatever if for some reason something 100 times better than Apple shows up?” – Umm, I can do that anytime, as Apple is completely DRM free. I own the content, not Apple.
4. “Well then welcome to a world where Apple can charge you twice the price it is charging you now or more.” – Any company in the world can double their prices. Welcome to economics. What’s the point?
5. “Welcome to a world where Apple is able to decide what you can put on your IPod and what you can’t.” – It’s their product, of course they can decide. You can decide if you buy it a not. And iPod is the market leader. Welcome to reality.
6. “ Welcome to a world where Apple can suddenly decide to no longer let you listen to the music you bought from them.” – Umm, welcome bullshit?
7. “Welcome to a world where you are not able to decide to switch to another system/player/whatever.” Umm, more bullshit? Did you drink?
Really, you arguments are pretty pathetic and lack foundation and knowledge. And you free software enthusiasts seem to have serious issues understanding the world economy.
— Rob · Jul 29, 10:51 AM · #
@Eike:
You don’t understand it, do you. Apple offers a product and they can do whatever they want with it. If they don’t want it to work with any other software than iTunes that is COMPLETELY OK – you don’t have to buy it.
If you let that sink, you will realize that your whole argument is totally useless. Apple has the right to do all this, and if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. What the hell is you problem?
And concerning the free stuff Apple builds upon. You might be right – they cannot do it without this stuff. But they’re the only company in the entire industry who has the “manpower” and “talent” to make beautiful, intelligent and usable products with those tools. Anybody can use these free tools, and if Apple makes the best products with it – they deserve the praise. Nobody else does it.
— Rob · Jul 29, 11:06 AM · #
@Rob:
1. “So you don’t want people to be able to fill their IPods with anything but ITunes?” – That’s correct! Apple created the perfect system where everyone else, no matter how open they were, failed. Why in the world should they change that? If you want to use some other software, get some other player. But don’t complain if it’s nowhere near the quality of the Apple solution.
Ummm. Ok. Hopeless…
2. “You don’t want to share that nice song with your friend by copying it to his computer from your IPod?” – That would be a nice feature. But do you realize that Apple has contracts with the studios, and if they would offer features like this, the whole thing probably wouldn’t work? Do you realize there is no competition for iTunes in terms of selection, functionality and usability, thus there is no need for change?
So even though you can’t share music with friends it’s all perfect? Wow. Talk about reality distortion.
3. “You don’t want to be able to switch to another system/player/whatever if for some reason something 100 times better than Apple shows up?” – Umm, I can do that anytime, as Apple is completely DRM free. I own the content, not Apple.
See 2. If you really own it you would be able to share it, no? That’s part of owning something.
4. “Well then welcome to a world where Apple can charge you twice the price it is charging you now or more.” – Any company in the world can double their prices. Welcome to economics. What’s the point?
The point is that not everyone in this world has a shitload of money. Actually most people don’t.
5. “Welcome to a world where Apple is able to decide what you can put on your IPod and what you can’t.” – It’s their product, of course they can decide. You can decide if you buy it a not. And iPod is the market leader. Welcome to reality.
That’s like saying it’s ok for the company who sold you a fridge to tell you what you’re allowed to put into your fridge. Or the company that sold you your car to tell you you’re not allowed to drive to country X with it.
The point being no-one would buy such a fridge or car. But Apple fans do exactly that.
6. “ Welcome to a world where Apple can suddenly decide to no longer let you listen to the music you bought from them.” – Umm, welcome bullshit?
Welcome to reality. See what happened to Kindle users who bought 1984 from Amazon. Why shouldn’t the same be possible with Apple? Because they’d never do something like that? Yea… Right…
7. “Welcome to a world where you are not able to decide to switch to another system/player/whatever.” Umm, more bullshit? Did you drink?
Welcome to reality again. Apple is actively working hard on excluding other music players from interacting with the IPod. So once you bought an IPod and filled it with songs from ITunes it is not easy to switch away from that. And if Apple continues like they do it will be impossible in a not so distant future.
— Lydia · Jul 29, 11:24 AM · #
great post. usually i would post “don’t feed the trolls”, but you have engaged him.
@rob:
remember the days when you couldn’t call phone numbers from other telecommunication companies? that was only because there was no interoperatibility.
remember the early ages of email? compuserve emails could only be sent to compuserve.
this has changed. you can call any number you like, with any hardware or software phone and from any country.
this does not work often in the internet world (which is the future). it’s a pain to be registered (due to contacts spread over the globe) to 8 or nine social networks only to keep in touch. I can’t reply to a facebook message from linkedin …
this is what this is about. important technologies should be open enough to be interoperable. and remember that the developers are the people who give you the software, games, websites, servers, hardware and everything else to have fun with or work on.
so if developers can not work properly, there will be less good apps and less good stuff, unless the system is commercially too relevant. but then the loyalty and creativity that you rely on every day will only be bound by money. and that is dangerous, as nokia and many others are setting up their competing systems. these systems are growing strongly,
coming back to openoffice compared to numbers or excel: for every day standard use it might be less fun, less sexy and lack some luxuries, but when it comes to hardcore work e.g. reporting, data mining or other things then openoffice is in fact more powerful. but i wouldn’t expect somebody like you to understand that. stay in your shiny world and please don’t dear look over the edge of the plate. you probably won’t comprehend what’s out there.
written on a macbookpro running with osx 10.5.6 in a safari browser ;)
— Oliver · Jul 29, 11:33 AM · #
@Lydia:
Well, your last post obviously shows that you have no idea how iTunes/iPod works.
It’s very easy actually . You buy (or import) DRM free music that resides on your harddrive. Once you want to switch to another software or player, you take the files and put them into the new system. No hassle. It doesnt matter whats on the iPod because it’s just mirrored from your harddrive.
Your whole – Apple controls you and forbids to switch to /use other devices and software – is, as I said before, pure, raw, rediculous bullshit, so please check your sources.
Your sharing music wish is basically piracy, and I understand Apple cannot just implement that- which is totally OK. Besides that, it is ONE lacking feature. iTunes/iPod has at least 50 features every other system lacks. You don’t know, do you?
Sharing music with my friends is listening to that music – not copying it to their harddrive anyway. And when it comes to listening, Apple offers the by far the best solutions on this planet. Have you seen how remote speakers work? How iTunes remotes work? How people at your party can vote for songs using their own iPhone/iPod? Just to name a few. When it comes to features, Apple is so innovative and far ahead of any other system its not even a contest. And you whine about not being able to copy files to your friends? Wow. You’re really sad.
You make vague claims what Apple could or might do, compare to cars, fridges, Amazon…. while totally ignoring the facts what make iTunes/iPod the best solution on the market. “Apple fans” enjoy this quality which is unmatched, thats why they laugh about your claims.
So, unless you get back to the book and return with some valid knowledge concerning this discussion, my conversation with you has ended. It was amusing though, sad Apple haters are always amusing.
@Oliver
I am with you on the whole making everything work together / let the data flow / let developers connect everything – thing. It is an important task for mankind to realize this data flow, which will be the next big step for IT and thus our lives.
BUT – you cannot forget that we live in an economy, and that will probably not change. Apple makes its own products work together like noone else in the industry, and they sell it to you. Of course there is a vision of EVERYTHING working like that. But thats a long way, and you cannot blame Apple for leading the way when it comes to innovation and design.
— Rob · Jul 29, 12:19 PM · #
Rob: First of all, it’s your right to disagree, but don’t get all cheeky and insulting. I will delete any further post with insults without any warning.
To the discussion itself: The largest difference here isn’t one of plausible arguments, it’s a state of mind. You are business driven, very old school. Business is good, then the product is good. Right?
Well, no. First of, that method might work for a while, but it’s not sustainable. Apple’s success so far is very short lived. After all, the company and especially Steve Jobs did some very wrong decisions in the past. Let’s see how it goes for the next 10 years.
And btw. being open doesn’t mean being unsuccessful. Just take a look at Google. They use mainly open technology, they are very successful and they are the more sustainable company. Business can be good, even if a company is open to the idea of “free”.
My suggestion would be: sure, you guys can exchange arguments for as long as you want (as long it’s civil), but I don’t think that anybody will be convinced of the others point of view.
— Igor Schwarzmann · Jul 29, 01:16 PM · #
@Rob
I am just telling stuff I get every day in a support channel with people having problems with their Apple products that basically all boil down to Apple not wanting to play nice with anyone else.
Oh and by the way: What makes you think I am an Apple hater? I think their vendor lock-in is wrong. I think their products are too expensive. But that doesn’t make me hate them…
If people want to choose to buy Apple products that’s fine with me. They should just be very aware of what they are buying.
— Lydia · Jul 29, 01:43 PM · #
Igor, your claim “Business is good, then the product is good. Right?” is not my point of view. Exactly the opposite. Apple makes good products, and thats why Apple makes good business. There is no other company as product focused as Apple in this industry. I am not business driven, I just understand that it’s business that drives the industry.
You say the success of Apple will be short lived and that wrong descisions have been made. Well, numbers speak a different language. Look at how the iPhone dominates the market and leaves competitors like Android or Windows Mobile in the dust. Because the product is so much better. People don’t mind that it is “closed”, they love it for being the very best experience, and they certainly don’t need Android, which is limited BECAUSE it is open.
— Rob · Jul 29, 01:49 PM · #
It feels weird, but apart from his rather unpolished choice of words, I’m mostly with Rob.
For example, really, if you’re able to use a Linux system without help from an expert, you’re perfectly capable of ripping your rightfully owned CDs or buying DRM-free MP3 files and put them into and out of iTunes at will.
Now, since I think about buying a netbook which surely won’t have Windows as an OS, let’s play this through: Please help me to complete this list of applications I’d have to replace — without serious losses in functionality or productivity, if that’s not too much to ask:
* Browser: Firefox. No change here. * Email: Google Mail. Easy like for all web based solutions. * Editing: Emacs. There’s no VIable alternative on Linux. ;-) * Type setting: LaTeX. * Task management: Replacement for OmniFocus? * Document Scanning and Archiving: Replacement for DEVONthink Pro Office? * Drafting and mindmapping: Replacement for Curio? * Home recording: Replacement for GarageBand? * Screencasting: Replacement for ScreenFlow? * Digital Video: Replacement for iMovie? * Remote systems administration: Replacement for iTerm? Just kidding. * Creative Writing: Replacement for Scrivener? * Hassle-free Backup: Replacement for TimeMachine? * Multi-Computing: Replacement for MobileMe synchronization? * Small but indispensably nifty tools: Replacements for Quicksilver, MarcoPolo, Fluid, Skitch, …?
I’d be surprised if there were much serious alternatives. Heck, already in the first year using Mac OS X I paid more software license fees than in 15 years using Linux! And I’ve been happy doing it because the time Apple hard- and software saves me to me is worth a multiple of that amount.
This may seem as brainwashed as one can get, so at this point I’d like to appreciate the effort of all the people that pressured Apple into starting iTunes Plus in the first place. Igor’s right in that freedom has to be fought for also in Apple land. I’ll gladly do my share to help add more freedom to the “fruitful” productivity I so much enjoy.
— Geewiz · Jul 29, 03:03 PM · #
#17:
“Apple offers a product and they can do whatever they want with it.”
Thankfully, that’s not quite how it works. Society imposes rules, limits and requirements upon those who offer products in the marketplace, to make sure that vendors treat customers fairly and don’t endanger competition.
“Apple has the right to do all this, and if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. What the hell is you problem?”
I argue that they don’t have this right. There is no solid technological reason why a hardware music player should only be accessible to a single music management software. Apple is using their market share in the business of hardware music players to shut down competition in music management software, yet competition is clearly in the best interest of the customer. There are laws against such behaviour in the marketplace. Microsoft has been fined more than a billion in the EU for violating them in similar ways.
As for voting with my wallet, yes, obviously I won’t buy an iPod. Not only for this reason, but also because the product is poor in other ways – the need to store duplicate copies of music files if one wants to both listen to them as well as easily copy them off the device in mass storage device mode, the lack of Vorbis support, the lack of FLAC support. That I can make that choice doesn’t make their behaviour any less anti-competitive and anti-customer, however. And that, hell, is my problem.
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 03:12 PM · #
@Eike:
“I argue that they don’t have this right.” – Let me assure you, they have the right.
Apple could come up with an iPod tomorrow that doesn’t play any music at all and just look good for $599 – no problem at all. Excuse me, but only because there is “no solid technological reason” doesn’t mean a company can’t do it. The whole discussion is useless.
Apple does 2 things with the iPod:
1. Build a product that so many people love that it is and will be the absolute undisputed king of handheld media players with no serious competition.
2. Create a “closed” environment to maximize their profits by crosselling related products while ensuring the absolute best user experience in the industry.
That is both absolutely legit.
And it’s successfull like no other model.
There IS NO competition.
Face it.
— Rob · Jul 29, 03:30 PM · #
“Apple could come up with an iPod tomorrow that doesn’t play any music at all and just look good for $599 – no problem at all.”
Indeed, a merely decorative object would not exhibit the same anti-competitive, anti-customer traits as the iPod does right now, and which you continue to either ignore or fail to understand.
(Ironically, the iPod in fact doesn’t play much of my music, due to the aforementioned lack of support for Vorbis and FLAC.)
“Excuse me, but only because there is “no solid technological reason” doesn’t mean a company can’t do it.”
No, it means they can’t cite technological reasons as an excuse for their behavior, as there aren’t any.
“That is both absolutely legit.”
I’d like to eventually see that decided by a higher court than Rob, the heated comment author at wiredvanity.
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 03:46 PM · #
Well, no higher court has sued Apple yet, which is a HINT that’s it is ok don’t you think so? We’re living in a world of lawyers, remember.
And now for the “anti-competitive, anti-customer traits” I fail to understand. That is right, I really do not see them.
I have about 30GB of Music from various sources dating back to 1998. I think I NEVER came across a FLAC or OGG file, and if, I downloaded a free converter and have an MP3 version 5 minutes later. Is that your “anti-customer” argument? Wow, it’s totally rediculous. What about the 150 pro-customer traits the iTunes/iPod universe offers to the customer? Ever heard of the term outweighing?
So, and what exactly is “anti-competitive”? First of all, isn’t it normal for a company to do anything legit to fight competition? Which company doesn’t do it? Who is the competition anyway? Zune? Amazon? iRiver? Palm? Noone offers a competitive environment actually. Apple built it and they are protecting it – which is something EVERY company would do.
So, where’s the meat in your arguments? Anything relevant or is that it?
— Rob · Jul 29, 04:16 PM · #
It isn’t impossible to use open formats on the iPod, it’s only incomfortable.
I once installed Rockbox on my iPod to get OGG Vorbis support, but the experience was so far inferior compared to the original UI that I switched back quickly.
In my eyes, the argument “Product X doesn’t support open format Y, therefore it’s anti-competitive” goes too far. That’s just their competition strategy.
If it’s a winning strategy is a completely different question, though. If I have the choice between two products that offer similar functionality and user experience, I’ll chose the one that’s OSS or at least supporting open formats.
Pity that I’m not offered that choice all too often.
— Geewiz · Jul 29, 05:33 PM · #
“Well, no higher court has sued Apple yet, which is a HINT that’s it is ok don’t you think so?”
I don’t. It took quite a while for Microsoft to be sued for the things they were fined for, too; longer than the iPod has existed.
“I have about 30GB of Music from various sources dating back to 1998. I think NEVER came across a FLAC or OGG file, and if, I downloaded a free converter and have an MP3 version 5 minutes later.”
1. My FLAC and Ogg files are generated from audio CDs. Several nice music shops, such as Magnatune, also sell them.
2. FLAC and Vorbis offer better audio quality, the latter at smaller file sizes, than MP3, which is why I prefer to use them. They’re also open, patent-unencumbered and don’t require paying license fees to anyone, which is why they’re better for archival purposes.
3. Generating a MP3 from a Vorbis file is a foolish thing to do, as both are lossy formats, and the MP3 would thus end up with a “worst of both worlds” quality. While FLAC is lossless, Vorbis is a more attractive format to derive from it if smaller file sizes are desired, due to the aforementioned quality advantages over MP3.
4. That free converter you downloaded might actually have been illegal, as MP3 requires paying license fees, and most of these converters use the “Lame” encoder implementation without paying these fees.
“What about the 150 pro-customer traits the iTunes/iPod universe offers to the customer? Ever heard of the term outweighing?”
Listen, we both know you’re a troll, but could you avoid stooping to the level of random, made-up-on-the-spot, meaningless numbers? It takes the fun right out of things.
“Who is the competition anyway? Zune? Amazon? iRiver? Palm? Noone offers a competitive environment actually.”
As stated several times, we’re talking about music management software, not hardware. Competition would be apps like Amarok, Banshee, RythmBox, Songbird and MediaMonkey, all of which are quite a bit better and featureful than iTunes, and offer wider platform support, yet have to jump through hoops to access iPods.
You’ve quite clearly not read my posts properly, presumably being too hasty to rush to Apple’s defense to do so. When you’re ready for an actual debate rather than feel you need to be Cupertino’s knight in shining armor, we can continue.
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 06:00 PM · #
“In my eyes, the argument “Product X doesn’t support open format Y, therefore it’s anti-competitive” goes too far.”
I never said so anywhere. I called it a poor product for that among other problems, not anti-competitive. Anti-competitive is using crypto technology to prevent apps other than iTunes from comfortably accessing iPods, thus abusing their share in one market to shut down competition in another.
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 06:06 PM · #
“It isn’t impossible to use open formats on the iPod, it’s only incomfortable.
I once installed Rockbox on my iPod to get OGG Vorbis support […]”
That’s like saying the iPhone’s lack of multitasking and non-modal notifications compared to, say, Android doesn’t suck because you can get them by jailbreaking. It might be true, but it also voids your warranty, is against the intent of the manufacturer, not supported by it, and thus clearly not a point in Apple’s favor here.
(Actually, I’m not sure you can get non-modal notifications even with jailbreaking.)
— Eike Hein · Jul 29, 06:13 PM · #
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